Inosanto Interview Part 2

BLACK BELT: How did you meet Bruce Lee, and when did you begin training with him?

INOSANTO: I met Bruce at Ed Parker's International Championships in July 1, 1964. I started training with him immediately afterward. He was in the Southern California area, doing different demonstrations, and he needed a partner for the demos. He said he would use me as the fall guy and would train me in his system, so that's what I did. Then he moved to Oakland, California, and I made periodic trips there to update my training.

BLACK BELT: You began training again with Lee when he returned to Los Angeles in November 1965, and the two of you opened a martial arts school in Chinatown in February 1967. Did Lee teach most of the classes?

INOSANTO: When the school first opened, I did the bulk of the teaching. Sifu Bruce taught 10 percent of the classes, and I assisted him when he taught. He usually taught on Saturday and Sunday. After the first year, he would come down once in a while and check out the progress at the school.

BLACK BELT: How many students were enrolled when the school first opened?

INOSANTO: I would estimate 22 or 24 people, including people like [Black Belt Hall of Fame members] Daniel Lee and Richard Bustillo.

BLACK BELT: Who established the school's cerriculum?

INOSANTO: I had some input, but the majority of the time, [Lee] controlled the curriculum at the Chinatown school.

BLACK BELT: Did the curriculum change often?

INOSANTO: Sometimes every three months, sometimes every six months, sometimes every month. It fluctuated. There was a period where [Lee] was changing it almost every month, particularly the warm-ups. We had 10 exercises that we had to do, then he made it 12. Then we doubled it by giving [students] a hard set and a soft set. Then he changed it to skipping rope before practice. We did a lot of physical conditioning for one hour, then the last two hours it was all technical [training].

BLACK BELT: Were there certain topics you learned from Lee, but couldn't impart to the other students?

INOSANTO: There were 13 things I could teach on the classical list, and that was it. He used to say that under no circumstances could I teach double pak sao (slap block). Pak sao bil jee (slap block/ finger jab) and pak sao lop sao (slap block/grabbing hand) were big, big secrets. He was the head man, so I kept it exactly the way he wanted me to teach it.

BLACK BELT: Did he tell you why he didn't want you to show these techniques to others?

INOSANTO: I never really asked him because he was the sifu. He just said "This is what I want," and I followed it.

BLACK BELT: Are you aware of anyone besides yourself, Taky Kimura and James Lee who were certified directly by Bruce Lee to teach jeet kune do?

INOSANTO: To my knowledge, there were only the three of us, because that is something I asked Bruce.

BLACK BELT: Besides you, did Lee award anyone a third rank in jeet kune do?

INOSANTO: No one other than myself, as far as I know, has been given a third rank instructor level in jeet kune do by Bruce Lee. He used this ranking system from 1965 to 1968 in all three of his arts: jun fan gung fu, the tao of chinese gung fu and jeet kune do. It went from blank circle as first rank, through various color yin and yang symbols, to rank eight, which is the highest level. Eighth level is for the founder of the system. He began another ranking system in March 1968 and then disbanded it in 1969. In 1988, Taky Kimura and I decided to reinstate this ranking system. The blank circle represents a beginning student. The empty yin/yang symbol is for rank one, an intermediate student. Rank two is an advanced student eligible for apprentice instructor level. Rank three is for associate instructor level. Rank four is a full instructor, and rank five is a senior full instructor. Taky is rank seven, and he ranked me six. He reserved rank eight for Bruce Lee forever.

BLACK BELT: Is rank eight essentially unachievable?

INOSANTO: Yes, it's unachievable because only the founder is at the top.

BLACK BELT: Your relationship with Lee went beyond student and teacher. You two were also close friends and did many things together outside of the school, did you not?

INOSANTO: We did a lot of things together. We went to bookstores, we did a lot of research together, a lot of training. And we did a lot of sparring. I think I am correct in saying he didn't spar with anybody as much as he sparred with me. He did a lot of experimentation on me.

BLACK BELT: Is it true that Lee kept records of how many hours his private students trained with him?

INOSANTO: Yes, he was very meticulous about keeping records on whom he taught.

BLACK BELT: Did you ever sit in on his private lessons with movie stars or notable martial artists?

INOSANTO: Yes, many times. I sat in on Steve McQueen's lessons. I sat in on one of James Coburn's lessons. I saw him train Chuck Norris. And I saw him train Mike Stone; he was very, very talented, according to Bruce.

BLACK BELT: Did Lee object to the fact you continued to train with others in the Filipino Arts after you began training in Jeet Kune Do with him?

INOSANTO: He said it was good that I embrace my own cultural art of the Philippines, but [warned me not to] be bound by everything Filipino just because I was Filipino. He said I should see things beyond my own culture, and accept what is good and bad in different cultures and different [fighting] systems. He was the one who told me to take fencing for six months, which I did.

BLACK BELT: Did you ever show Lee some of the kali you had learned?

INOSANTO:Yes, I asked him what he thought of it. He told me what he thought was good for theatrics or for show, and what he thought was good for fighting, and what he thought was good for nothing. He was very frank. If he thought something would never work in a hundred years, he would say so.

BLACK BELT: What did he like about kali?

INOSANTO: He liked a lot of the largo mano (long-hand style).

BLACK BELT: Did you introduce him to the nunchaku?

INOSANTO: Yes, and he became very proficient with it.

BLACK BELT: What other training equipment did you show to Lee?

INOSANTO: Because of my track & field background, I introduced him to running shoes. Before that, he used to wear these desert boots. Using running shoes was quite new at the time. The only people who wore those kind of gym shoes or sneakers during that period were track&field people. Another thing I introduced to him was the foam kicking shield, because we used it in football. I also introduced him to these forearm pads for use when you block, but at first he didn't like them because he didn't like the way they felt. But after about a week and a half, he had [created] all these drills with them.

BLACK BELT: Were you also responsible for Lee using baseball shin guards in his training?

INOSANTO: I introduced them to him, actually I put them on myself because he was always kicking my shin.

BLACK BELT: How did Lee go about investigating various martial arts? There is so much information about each system that it would seem to be an overwhelming task.

INOSANTO: He always said you should capture the essence of each art. It's impossible to study every art, but you want to capture the essence of each. It's like when you thumb through a book; that's what he was doing thumbing through the styles, seeing if there was anything he could fit into his personal system. Either a training method, or progression, or training equipment, or maybe some mode of technique that he could modify.

BLACK BELT: When did Lee change the name of his system from Jun Fan Gung Fu to jeet kune do, and what is the difference between the two?

INOSANTO: The Jun Fan Gung Fu Institute was established [by Lee] in Seattle, so [the term] Jun Fan Kung fu [is used to indicate] the base system he had before he called it jeet kune do. Somewhere around the latter part of 1966 we began using the term jeet kune do, the "way of the intercepting fist" or the "way of the stopping fist."

BLACK BELT: When did Lee tell you to close the Los Angeles Chinatown school, and why?

INOSANTO: He told me to close it in December of 1969. In January of 1970, we moved the training into my backyard. I asked him if I could teach a few people, and he said it was OK, but to keep it to just a few people. He wanted to keep it small and keep the quality high. His system was never made for mass distribution.

BLACK BELT: Do you feel Lee was progressing in his training right up to the time of his death?

INOSANTO: There's no doubt about it. When I visited him in Hong Kong in 1972, I went there basically to train, even though he brought me down there to be in [the movie] Game of Death. Being in Game of Death was nice, but my main thing was to update [my training]. It was kind of nice; we had these mini-workouts in between cars, in between restaurants, walking up stairs. Some of the best things I ever learned from him was when we were eating Chinese food, because he would explain the system so I could understand it mentally.

BLACK BELT: Do you think today's martial artists have a higher level of knowledge and skill than those of several decades ago, and if so, why?

INOSANTO: Yes, because people are more open, more giving. The level of understanding is higher. Back in the '50s and '60s, if you just knew what a front kick was, it would throw people off because they were not exposed to kicking. They didn't know what to do. If you started kicking, people would say "That's sissy fighting" or "That's dirty fighting." Today's martial artists have seen a lot of Bruce Lee movies, a lot of kung fu movies, so they are more educated. Any kid can throw a kick now. The level of awareness is much higher every year, and it should be that way.

BLACK BELT: Do you think that, if Lee were alive today, he would still be researching martial arts from around the world in an effort to perfect his fighting system, or do you think he would be satisfied that he had developed a finely honed finished product and didn't need to investigate anymore?

INOSANTO: In my opinion, he would have always continued his research. He said you shouldn't add to a system for the sake of adding, but you should add for the sake of making it more efficient. He said it isn't the accumulation of knowledge that works, but what you can do.

BLACK BELT: When Bruce Lee died in 1973, did you feel that the burden of preserving his feet kune do had been thrust upon your shoulders?

INOSANTO: I would say yes, I felt the pressure. I tried to keep the art very low-key, but a lot of people were opening up jeet kune do schools; everyone was doing it. These people weren't even close [to being legitimate JKD instructors]. They had seen pictures and tried to copy different things, and were calling it jeet kune do.

BLACK BELT: Do you teach the original Jun Fan/JKD?

INOSANTO: Yes. Let me explain this. We teach blend classes: in other words, a little bit of muay Thai, a little bit of savate, a little bit of Jun Fan kickboxing, a little bit of trapping, a little bit of Filipino weaponry where students can see what they want to take. It is like an introduction course. There's a straight muay Thai class, a straight savate class, a straight shootwrestling class and a straight kali class. And we have straight Jun Fan Gung Fu classes. The original material is taught in these classes.

BLACK BELT: So the Jun Fan/JKD curriculum is taught separately from the other styles at your school?

INOSANTO: Absolutely separate.

BLACK BELT: What do you usually teach at your martial arts seminars?

INOSANTO: I teach whatever the host requests. If he wants silat, I teach silat. If he wants muay Thai, I teach muay Thai. If he wants Jun Fan kung fu, I teach Jun Fan Gung Fu. I don't teach Jun Fan Gung Fu mixed with silat, but I might make a comparison. I might say "This is the way they do it in Jun Fan Gung Fu; and this is the way a muay Thai man might handle the same attack." So the host dictates what I teach, because I am there to help his knowledge and to help his students.

BLACK BELT: Do you think jeet kune do is designed for the average individual, or must you be a more skilled martial artist to train in this highly advanced system?

INOSANTO: You definitely have to put in the [training] time, but if you are gifted and talented, it takes less time [to become skilled]. But the way jeet kune do is structured, there is something in it that everybody can do. The majority of things taught in jeet kune do are relatively easy. Jeet kune do can be practiced by a person who doesn't have the best inherent skills, and it can be practiced by an individual who is very talented. The person who is gifted is obviously going to do it much better. In other words, everyone can sing the same song, but some are going to sound a little better.